Is a therapy session better for men than watching a YouTube video about mental health? taking a walk? Reading a book? Bingeing a TV series? Chronically masturbating?
Saying stuff like that is self protection cope so you rationalize staying away. None of those are even remotely close replacement to therapy. I was resistant for a long time to therapy, but actually going has dramatically improved my life in ways that consuming media never could.
I’ve heard similar arguments from other people, with the only functional difference being the replacement of the word “therapy” with the word “church”.
I accept that therapy has benefited you. I accept that church has benefited others.
My own experiences with therapy do not match yours. Much like my interaction with religion, I found multiple experiences with therapy to be denigrating and exploitative. Despite external criticism and accusations of “toxicity”, I feel my viewpoints on therapy are as valid as anyone else’s.
Well, you’re entitled to your own view. I don’t know you or your history so I’m not going to harp on you. It was obvious from the jump you have therapy trauma and I’m deeply sorry for that. I’ve had bad experiences as a teen with therapy, but looking back I can see I was part of the problem. So now I just see these types of arguments as justification to keep living in a miserable dysfunctional way.
However I will say comparison between organized religion and a medical science is sort of silly. I get what you’re going for, different strokes for different folks. But therapist are trained medical professionals backed by research and countless studies, not “sky wizard said I alone know best”.
I’ll leave you alone, I just had to say something. Bless and GL. ♥️
Data shows that when men do access services such as NHS Talking Therapies, their outcomes are comparable to those of women, demonstrating that evidence-based treatment works — if men can get to it. Access to evidence-based therapies, including Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT), remains vital.
But no, we (men) convinvince ourselves it won’t work and: the post. Worse when shown scientific studies we demand, we’ll reject it to keep our toxic world view intact. Talking works don’t let anyone convince you that “real men don’t talk about their problems” it makes your life worse, it makes society worse.
I feel that anything I post contradicting the “outcomes comparable to those of women”, is trying to “keep our toxic world view intact.”
I feel that any criticism I have about the validity of therapy is dismissed as a “toxic worldview”.
I feel that there is a distinct difference between “talking” and “therapy”.
I feel that you’re demonstrating the parent comment’s point:
Therapy doesn’t work well for man anyway, and health professionals are still in the denial stage, blaming the patients for the failure.
With regards to your comment:
It works better than booze and suicide. See post.
I feel that this is not a valid comparison. Yes, therapy works better than booze and suicide. You know what else works better than booze and suicide? Joining a cult. Scientology. Weed. Pretty much anything works better than booze and suicide, including therapy. I feel that the “alternatives” you provided are disingenuous.
I feel that the primary destabilizing factor in my mental well being is economic, and I feel that any benefit I might achieve from therapy is vastly outweighed by the bill for that therapy.
I feel I’m being told “Therapy is the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to mental health but through therapy”. And I feel that this sort of worldview is far more toxic than anything I might have in my head.
Peer pressure is not an adequate replacement for scientific study.
Scientific study was provided. A target was set. A target was met, twice to show it wasn’t a fluke. You may now move the target if you wish. You may now reconsider if that target was a valid one anyway. I really don’t want to pressure you into anything.
I’m just trying to set the seeds: therapy works, I’ve shown you it works. Society tells men that we shouldn’t talk about our feelings, that pressure results in the above post.
Your response is natural considering the social pressures we are under. There is a name for this social pressure: toxic masculinity, it is well discussed. But, even ignoring all the feminist mumbo jumbo, we have the studies, we have the results. Therapy works to lessen the number of suicides, we know it does.
Look at the story we tell ourselves:
Is therapy any better than a placebo?
Is a therapy session better for men than watching a YouTube video about mental health? taking a walk? Reading a book? Bingeing a TV series? Chronically masturbating?
Somehow, I doubt it.
Yes, therapy is better than all those things.
Therapy doesn’t work well for man anyway, and health professionals are still in the denial stage, blaming the patients for the failure.
The science says therapy is just as effective for men as women, we’ve known this for over 10 years. It’s a catastrophy. We need to communicate to men there are real solutions for us beyond ending it all. I’m not saying therapy is a magic bullet, but for the most vulnerable of men, we cannot be dissmissing the very real affect therapy (and the skills they develop there) has on achieving positive outcomes.
Perhaps talking isn’t the best marketing for therapy. Do we focus on the skills people develop in therapy? Is that more masculine? I don’t really know, emotional self sufficiency? Cognitive self sufficiency? Resilience Training? There has to be a way.
The science says therapy is just as effective for men as women, we’ve known this for over 10 years.
Confirmation bias. Therapy works for the people who decide to keep using it. The people who realize it doesn’t work for them stop using it, or don’t start to begin with.
We need to communicate to men
You need to listen to what men are communicating to you, rather than immediately dismissing their concerns as a “toxic worldview”.
Where I think this goes too far is treating attrition as if it invalidates the evidence entirely. Every behavioral and medical intervention has drop-off: antidepressants, physiotherapy, rehab, even exercise programs. That doesn’t make them placebos; it means they’re not universally effective.
Therapy “working” in the literature doesn’t mean everyone benefits. It means:
people who engage with evidence-based modalities show measurable improvement compared to controls
this holds for men at similar rates to women once access and engagement happen.
Listening to men also means being honest about tradeoffs: therapy won’t fix economic stress, it won’t work for everyone, it costs time and money. Those are as true for women as they are for men.
But telling men “it doesn’t work for people like you” goes beyond skepticism. It closes off an option that does reduce risk for a non-trivial number of men at their most vulnerable. How many men, given the option of an honest attempt at therapy and the skills learned there, wouldn’t be a statistic in this post?
You need to listen to what men are communicating to you, rather than immediately dismissing their concerns as a “toxic worldview”.
I have and specifically addressed it. It’s tragic the story we tell ourselves: “therapy doesn’t work for men” I was told… Yes it does, here’s the study that says it does. “Therapy is a placebo, as effective as sitting at home and masturbating” I was told. No, here’s the study that says it isn’t. I addressed where these feelings come from: the pressure society imparts on men.
What would convince you? Not science, you have that already, it didn’t work. What could change your mind?
What would convince you? Not science, you have that already, it didn’t work. What could change your mind?
Science says I don’t get to present my anecdotal evidence. I don’t get to discuss how it has failed me, personally, in the multitude of times I have experienced it. The explanation for that could be that I have failed; the explanation could be that therapy has failed.
Refreshing my position:
I feel I’m being told “Therapy is the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to mental health but through therapy”. And I feel that this sort of worldview is far more toxic than anything I might have in my head.
The answer to the question you posed of me is “falsifiability”. An understanding of how therapy can fail, rather than a blanket assertion that it can do nothing but succeed. Therapy is presented as infallible; that if it doesn’t work, fault and blame lies primarily or entirely with the patient and their “toxic worldview”.
That’s not mental health. That’s religion. Therapy seems to work for the same reason that religion works. And it seems to fail for the same reasons that religion fails.
The conversation that we should be having isn’t how patients can succeed at therapy. It’s how therapy can better serve the patient. And for that, we need to ignore the successes, and look at the people it has failed.
Is therapy any better than a placebo?
Is a therapy session better for men than watching a YouTube video about mental health? taking a walk? Reading a book? Bingeing a TV series? Chronically masturbating?
Somehow, I doubt it.
Saying stuff like that is self protection cope so you rationalize staying away. None of those are even remotely close replacement to therapy. I was resistant for a long time to therapy, but actually going has dramatically improved my life in ways that consuming media never could.
I’ve heard similar arguments from other people, with the only functional difference being the replacement of the word “therapy” with the word “church”.
I accept that therapy has benefited you. I accept that church has benefited others.
My own experiences with therapy do not match yours. Much like my interaction with religion, I found multiple experiences with therapy to be denigrating and exploitative. Despite external criticism and accusations of “toxicity”, I feel my viewpoints on therapy are as valid as anyone else’s.
Well, you’re entitled to your own view. I don’t know you or your history so I’m not going to harp on you. It was obvious from the jump you have therapy trauma and I’m deeply sorry for that. I’ve had bad experiences as a teen with therapy, but looking back I can see I was part of the problem. So now I just see these types of arguments as justification to keep living in a miserable dysfunctional way.
However I will say comparison between organized religion and a medical science is sort of silly. I get what you’re going for, different strokes for different folks. But therapist are trained medical professionals backed by research and countless studies, not “sky wizard said I alone know best”.
I’ll leave you alone, I just had to say something. Bless and GL. ♥️
Go, find out. Can’t be worse than being in the post.
Peer pressure is not an adequate replacement for scientific study.
Last thing I want to do is pressure you. Therapy is a safe space, you can talk or not talk as you wish.
You are proving my point brilliantly though. Men are so resistant to therapy despite it being shown to work. Here’s an article with links to a study.
Here’s an excerpt:
But no, we (men) convinvince ourselves it won’t work and: the post. Worse when shown scientific studies we demand, we’ll reject it to keep our toxic world view intact. Talking works don’t let anyone convince you that “real men don’t talk about their problems” it makes your life worse, it makes society worse.
I feel that anything I post contradicting the “outcomes comparable to those of women”, is trying to “keep our toxic world view intact.”
I feel that any criticism I have about the validity of therapy is dismissed as a “toxic worldview”.
I feel that there is a distinct difference between “talking” and “therapy”.
I feel that you’re demonstrating the parent comment’s point:
With regards to your comment:
I feel that this is not a valid comparison. Yes, therapy works better than booze and suicide. You know what else works better than booze and suicide? Joining a cult. Scientology. Weed. Pretty much anything works better than booze and suicide, including therapy. I feel that the “alternatives” you provided are disingenuous.
I feel that the primary destabilizing factor in my mental well being is economic, and I feel that any benefit I might achieve from therapy is vastly outweighed by the bill for that therapy.
I feel I’m being told “Therapy is the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to mental health but through therapy”. And I feel that this sort of worldview is far more toxic than anything I might have in my head.
Respectfully
Scientific study was provided. A target was set. A target was met, twice to show it wasn’t a fluke. You may now move the target if you wish. You may now reconsider if that target was a valid one anyway. I really don’t want to pressure you into anything.
I’m just trying to set the seeds: therapy works, I’ve shown you it works. Society tells men that we shouldn’t talk about our feelings, that pressure results in the above post.
Your response is natural considering the social pressures we are under. There is a name for this social pressure: toxic masculinity, it is well discussed. But, even ignoring all the feminist mumbo jumbo, we have the studies, we have the results. Therapy works to lessen the number of suicides, we know it does.
Look at the story we tell ourselves:
Yes, therapy is better than all those things.
The science says therapy is just as effective for men as women, we’ve known this for over 10 years. It’s a catastrophy. We need to communicate to men there are real solutions for us beyond ending it all. I’m not saying therapy is a magic bullet, but for the most vulnerable of men, we cannot be dissmissing the very real affect therapy (and the skills they develop there) has on achieving positive outcomes.
Perhaps talking isn’t the best marketing for therapy. Do we focus on the skills people develop in therapy? Is that more masculine? I don’t really know, emotional self sufficiency? Cognitive self sufficiency? Resilience Training? There has to be a way.
Confirmation bias. Therapy works for the people who decide to keep using it. The people who realize it doesn’t work for them stop using it, or don’t start to begin with.
You need to listen to what men are communicating to you, rather than immediately dismissing their concerns as a “toxic worldview”.
Attrition and self-selection are real issues.
Where I think this goes too far is treating attrition as if it invalidates the evidence entirely. Every behavioral and medical intervention has drop-off: antidepressants, physiotherapy, rehab, even exercise programs. That doesn’t make them placebos; it means they’re not universally effective.
Therapy “working” in the literature doesn’t mean everyone benefits. It means: people who engage with evidence-based modalities show measurable improvement compared to controls this holds for men at similar rates to women once access and engagement happen.
Listening to men also means being honest about tradeoffs: therapy won’t fix economic stress, it won’t work for everyone, it costs time and money. Those are as true for women as they are for men.
But telling men “it doesn’t work for people like you” goes beyond skepticism. It closes off an option that does reduce risk for a non-trivial number of men at their most vulnerable. How many men, given the option of an honest attempt at therapy and the skills learned there, wouldn’t be a statistic in this post?
I have and specifically addressed it. It’s tragic the story we tell ourselves: “therapy doesn’t work for men” I was told… Yes it does, here’s the study that says it does. “Therapy is a placebo, as effective as sitting at home and masturbating” I was told. No, here’s the study that says it isn’t. I addressed where these feelings come from: the pressure society imparts on men.
What would convince you? Not science, you have that already, it didn’t work. What could change your mind?
Science says I don’t get to present my anecdotal evidence. I don’t get to discuss how it has failed me, personally, in the multitude of times I have experienced it. The explanation for that could be that I have failed; the explanation could be that therapy has failed.
Refreshing my position:
The answer to the question you posed of me is “falsifiability”. An understanding of how therapy can fail, rather than a blanket assertion that it can do nothing but succeed. Therapy is presented as infallible; that if it doesn’t work, fault and blame lies primarily or entirely with the patient and their “toxic worldview”.
That’s not mental health. That’s religion. Therapy seems to work for the same reason that religion works. And it seems to fail for the same reasons that religion fails.
The conversation that we should be having isn’t how patients can succeed at therapy. It’s how therapy can better serve the patient. And for that, we need to ignore the successes, and look at the people it has failed.