No, no, no. You don’t get to go there now. You’ve spent all this time explaining to me that “the system” works. You’ve shown all the scientific data supporting it. That’s now an absolute fact. The system clearly works, so if I experience any failure, that has to be all on me.
I’m not sure I can say anything to mollify you.
You could scroll up. You’ve posted any number of scientific studies showing that therapy works. Scroll up far enough, and you’ll find a graph that says it doesn’t.
You could shift your focus away from “the system’s” successes and shift instead toward its failures.
It’s much easier to fix something that we know to be broken. Stop fighting people when you’re told how badly it sucks, and keep the focus on what it needs to change.
You could completely remove the word “toxic” from your vocabulary: 100% of the time, it is used accusatorily against the very people that “the system” has failed.
I want to be very clear about something, because I think it got lost.
I am not saying therapy failing you makes you wrong, broken, or culpable. Nor have I ever said that, please quote me. You havent provided a source for anything yet, I demand one now. Or stop with this pitiful attempt to portray me as something I am not.
I am saying that generalizing from personal failure to “therapy doesn’t work for men” causes harm at a population level even though that conclusion feels emotionally justified.
We know men under utilise mental health services. We know mental health services help men on aggregate. I am sorry it didn’t help you personally.
Those two things can be true at the same time.
A treatment can be fallible, imperfect, and even damaging for some people (allergies for example) and still be worth recommending when it reduces risk for many others. We don’t not use paracetamol for everybody who needs it just because you’re allergic.
My frustration is not with men who were failed by therapy. It’s with the narrative leap from “this didn’t help me” to “this shouldn’t be encouraged,” because we know where that road ends for a lot of men. The graph.
I feel you misrepresented so much in this discussion. The language around therapy is infalible, it wasn’t. You wanted scientific studies until you got them, having got them you didn’t read them. You thought therapy is treated as unfalsifiable, it isn’t. Was it you that suggested therapy is as effective as placebo when it isn’t. It might not have been, I don’t read usernames. I feel like you have gone out of your way to not read anything you don’t like, and interpret everything in the least charitable light you could.
Here you misrepresent so much of what I say it isn’t worth it to go line by line but to remind you you’ve consistently done it before, tell you you’re doing it egregiously now and leave it at that. Provide a quote.
It’s much easier to fix something that we know to be broken.
I am
We know men under utilise mental health services. We know mental health services help men on aggregate.
My frustration is not with men who were failed by therapy. It’s with the narrative leap from “this didn’t help me” to “this shouldn’t be encouraged,
You’re arguing against a strawman. That narrative leap isn’t being made.
A treatment can be fallible, imperfect, and even damaging for some people and still be worth recommending when it reduces risk for many others.
Of course. BUT, (and this is the part you keep missing) when you have concrete evidence in front of you that it is ineffective/damaging (The Graph), the focus needs to shift toward ameliorating that harm. Stop shoving the failing status quo down throats. Stop blaming patients. Admit failure, admit fault, and focus on fixing the system.
Recognize that there is a group of people for whom the current system doesn’t work. Stop telling that group to utilize the current system. Give them a system that does actually work for them.
Of course. BUT, (and this is the part you keep missing) when you have concrete evidence in front of you that it is ineffective/damaging (The Graph), the focus needs to shift toward ameliorating that harm.
That’s not what the graph shows. Death by suicide is reported at a higher rate for men in all countries. That’s what the graph shows.
It doesn’t show therapy being a placebo. It doesn’t show “concrete evidence” of anthing you have assserted. You haven’t shown anything at all. You have provided no evidence to support that therapy less positive outcomes than the control group. You cannot make that claim. Of course I’m missing it, you havent done anything…
Here’s what the data does show: Men experience positive outcomes similar to women when using mental health services.
But why are men’s suicide rate so much higher? Because men utilise mental health services at a much lower rate. Perfectly explained by the graph.
Why do men utilise mental health services at a much lower rate? Perhaps other men erroneously say it doesn’t work for men. Perhaps other men erroneously say its no better than staying at home and jerking off. Perhaps men are under a social pressure to not seek help.
I’ve said all this before though. There’s nothing new above just rehashing things you’ve ignored many times before.
Stop blaming patients.
Liar. I haven’t, please provide a quote of me directly blaming a patient that isnt. If you don’t I’ll ask you stop lying about me. I’ll provide 1 of me directly doing the exact opposite.
I am genuinely sorry it didn’t work for you.
I am genuinely sorry your expectations for what therapy could do for you were not managed successfully.
I am genuinely sorry you have been made to feel as if it was your fault you didn’t respond to the treatment. Very few treatments are 100% effective
That was easy.
Recognize that there is a group of people for whom the current system doesn’t work.
I have, repeatedly. Please stop lying about this too. If you don’t, I’ll ask you stop lying about me. I’ll provide a quote of me doing the exact opposite.
It also doesn’t mean that, for those therapy fails, we shouldn’t try something else.
That didn’t take long to find.
But here’s a new one for you. Just because there are some people allergic to some drugs that doesn’t mean we stop using them. We just don’t use them for that patient. This is the strongest case you can make, this drug a is actively harmful for patient a. We still give drug a to patient b. That also doesn’t mean that, for those that therapy fails, we shouldn’t try something else. just give patient a drug b. Drug a still “works”.
Strawman
You didn’t say that therapy didn’t help you? You didn’t say that therapy was as effective as sitting at home and masturbating? Hmm maybe that was another guy.
This you?
Science says I don’t get to present my anecdotal evidence. I don’t get to discuss how it has failed me, personally,
And this? This you?
Is a therapy session better for men than watching a YouTube video about mental health? taking a walk? Reading a book? Bingeing a TV series? Chronically masturbating?
Is this you?
Of course. BUT, (and this is the part you keep missing) when you have concrete evidence in front of you that it is ineffective/damaging (The Graph), the focus needs to shift toward ameliorating that harm.
it shows therapy failing to prevent harm. It shows a systemic failure that you refuse to accept.
Liar. I haven’t, please provide a quote of me directly blaming a patient that isnt.
The very first words you gave us in this thread:
We need to get mem comfortable with therepy.
You didn’t say we need to make therapy comfortable for men. You said we need to make men comfortable with therapy. You described the problem as being on the side of the patient, rather than on the side of the system. You continued:
I know, toxic masculinity says “Real men don’t talk about their problems”.
Didn’t bother to discover any of their concerns. Didn’t bother to determine the validity of those concerns. Didn’t validate their feelings on the subject; just dismissed them entirely. You collapsed every concern of men about therapy into “toxic masculinity”. Your very first thought on the topic was to blame the patient.
That victim-blaming attitude upset me considerably, and is the specific reason why I decided to engage with you. The attitude you presented in your very first words of your very first comment is my answer to a question you will ask later in the conversation:
Why do men utilise mental health services at a much lower rate? Perhaps other men erroneously say it doesn’t work for men. Perhaps other men erroneously say its no better than staying at home and jerking off. Perhaps men are under a social pressure to not seek help.
Stop dismissing their concerns. Stop alienating them. Start listening. Start fixing the system so that it adequately addresses their concerns. Stop blaming their “toxic masculinity”, start validating their concerns.
You didn’t say that therapy was as effective as sitting at home and masturbating?
No, actually, I did not. I invite you to read the comment again. You provided “booze” and “suicide”, and argued that therapy was better than these harmful alternatives.
In response, I asked whether therapy was better than neutral alternatives. Obviously, it’s better than direct harm. I asked whether it was better than a placebo. I asked whether therapy was better than chronic masturbation, among several other neutral, non-harmful alternatives.
it shows therapy failing to prevent harm. It shows a systemic failure that you refuse to accept.
It doesn’t, it shows men in all countries reportedly committing suicide at a higher rate. You inferred that from nothing. Why are women’s numbers so much lower? They don’t succeed in therapy more. They do attend more. If therapy is such a systemic failure where’s the systemic faliure? Where’s the massive number of women committing suicide. Surely you believe more women commit suicide? (More women attend therapy, therapy is a failure) We have a split on gender lines that outcome of therapy (we know are qual) do not explain. With sources please. It isn’t outcome, it’s income.
We need to get mem comfortable with therepy.
You didn’t say we need to make therapy comfortable for men. You said we need to make men comfortable with therapy. You described the problem as being on the side of the patient, rather than on the side of the system. You continued:
Any evidence therapy is particularly uncomfortable for men? There is evidence, that when men attend therapy, theres little difference in result between men and women. You have inferred that therapy, in itself, is uncomfotable for men from nothing.
There is also evidence that men do not attend therapy at the same rate as women. Hence: we need to get men comfortable with therapy. I go on to justify why I think men are uncomfortable with therapy hence:
I know, toxic masculinity says “Real men don’t talk about their problems”.
Didn’t bother to discover any of their concerns. Didn’t bother to determine the validity of those concerns. Didn’t validate their feelings on the subject; just dismissed them entirely.
What do you think toxic masculinity is? It’s all of that. It’s the pressures that society places on men in that result in toxic outcomes. We agree men committing suicide at a ludicrously high rate is a toxic outcome? Their concerns? I am a man, they’re my concerns. Men are concerned with going to therapy. We need to get them comfortable with the idea. Because therapy works, we don’t attend as much as we should, and vulnerable men die because of it.
None of that is victim blaming. Smashing gender norms will get men comfortable with therapy. No blaming the individual man necessary.
I’m satisfied you’re lie is a spurious link. My counter examples are direct.
You didn’t say that therapy was as effective as sitting at home and masturbating?
[…] In response, I asked whether therapy was better than neutral alternatives. Obviously, it’s better than direct harm. I asked whether it was better than a placebo. I asked whether therapy was better than chronic masturbation, among several other neutral, non-harmful alternatives.
You did ask that. But we’ve known for over a decade that it is better. JAQing off whether therapy is better than Jacking off is suggesting therapy is as effective as a placebo. We know it isn’t. If you weren’t JAQing off, having just learned you are over a decade behind why didn’t you transition to learning mode. Who finds out they’re a decade behind, and continues to argue a position they just learned is a decade out of date.
Stop dismissing their concerns. Stop alienating them. Start listening. Start fixing the system so that it adequately addresses their concerns. Stop blaming their “toxic masculinity”, start validating their concerns.
I don’t dismiss their concerns. I show evidence to counter them. Is therapy effective for men? Yes, here’s a link. Is it more effective than jacking off? Yes here’s a link. I have to listen to their concerns to counter them. I’ve told you many times that I am trying to fix the system.
You don’t understand toxic masculinity. A man doesn’t have toxic masculinity, a man experiences pressure to perform in masculinity in ways that can lead to toxic outcomes. Like suicide. We call these pressures toxic masculinity “TM”. With that clarified does that explain some things? You heard a term you didn’t understand. You inferred some nonsense from nothing. You then gave me a hard time for your misunderstanding.
Self-reliance and emotional repression are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance use disorders.
See: graph
The reference to TM was purely to tell people that know why not to waste time talking to me about why. The “why” doesn’t matter, it didn’t help you at all to learn it. It’s decades of feminist theory, 3 actually that’s how far you are behind, and this is a Lemmy thread.
The “what” does matter, the “what” we need to do is get men into pathways that lead to positive outcomes. Therapy is one. Parallel to therapy, you are welcome to suggest another (you haven’t). But do not suggest therapy is in anyway similar to a placebo, you’re merely reinforcing the pressure men already have to not seek it.
All these people killing themselves aren’t indicative of any sort of problem with “the system”. They’re responsible for their own deaths, because they refuse to accept what you know to be true.
You were very clear. Therapy didn’t fail these men. These men failed therapy. I understand perfectly.
That’s explicitly not what I said. I’m not sure I can say anything to mollify you. I am sorry you were failed by the system and by me.
No, no, no. You don’t get to go there now. You’ve spent all this time explaining to me that “the system” works. You’ve shown all the scientific data supporting it. That’s now an absolute fact. The system clearly works, so if I experience any failure, that has to be all on me.
You could scroll up. You’ve posted any number of scientific studies showing that therapy works. Scroll up far enough, and you’ll find a graph that says it doesn’t.
You could shift your focus away from “the system’s” successes and shift instead toward its failures.
It’s much easier to fix something that we know to be broken. Stop fighting people when you’re told how badly it sucks, and keep the focus on what it needs to change.
You could completely remove the word “toxic” from your vocabulary: 100% of the time, it is used accusatorily against the very people that “the system” has failed.
I want to be very clear about something, because I think it got lost. I am not saying therapy failing you makes you wrong, broken, or culpable. Nor have I ever said that, please quote me. You havent provided a source for anything yet, I demand one now. Or stop with this pitiful attempt to portray me as something I am not.
I am saying that generalizing from personal failure to “therapy doesn’t work for men” causes harm at a population level even though that conclusion feels emotionally justified.
We know men under utilise mental health services. We know mental health services help men on aggregate. I am sorry it didn’t help you personally.
Those two things can be true at the same time.
A treatment can be fallible, imperfect, and even damaging for some people (allergies for example) and still be worth recommending when it reduces risk for many others. We don’t not use paracetamol for everybody who needs it just because you’re allergic.
My frustration is not with men who were failed by therapy. It’s with the narrative leap from “this didn’t help me” to “this shouldn’t be encouraged,” because we know where that road ends for a lot of men. The graph.
I feel you misrepresented so much in this discussion. The language around therapy is infalible, it wasn’t. You wanted scientific studies until you got them, having got them you didn’t read them. You thought therapy is treated as unfalsifiable, it isn’t. Was it you that suggested therapy is as effective as placebo when it isn’t. It might not have been, I don’t read usernames. I feel like you have gone out of your way to not read anything you don’t like, and interpret everything in the least charitable light you could.
Here you misrepresent so much of what I say it isn’t worth it to go line by line but to remind you you’ve consistently done it before, tell you you’re doing it egregiously now and leave it at that. Provide a quote.
I am
You’re arguing against a strawman. That narrative leap isn’t being made.
Of course. BUT, (and this is the part you keep missing) when you have concrete evidence in front of you that it is ineffective/damaging (The Graph), the focus needs to shift toward ameliorating that harm. Stop shoving the failing status quo down throats. Stop blaming patients. Admit failure, admit fault, and focus on fixing the system.
Recognize that there is a group of people for whom the current system doesn’t work. Stop telling that group to utilize the current system. Give them a system that does actually work for them.
That’s not what the graph shows. Death by suicide is reported at a higher rate for men in all countries. That’s what the graph shows.
It doesn’t show therapy being a placebo. It doesn’t show “concrete evidence” of anthing you have assserted. You haven’t shown anything at all. You have provided no evidence to support that therapy less positive outcomes than the control group. You cannot make that claim. Of course I’m missing it, you havent done anything…
Here’s what the data does show: Men experience positive outcomes similar to women when using mental health services.
But why are men’s suicide rate so much higher? Because men utilise mental health services at a much lower rate. Perfectly explained by the graph.
Why do men utilise mental health services at a much lower rate? Perhaps other men erroneously say it doesn’t work for men. Perhaps other men erroneously say its no better than staying at home and jerking off. Perhaps men are under a social pressure to not seek help.
I’ve said all this before though. There’s nothing new above just rehashing things you’ve ignored many times before.
Liar. I haven’t, please provide a quote of me directly blaming a patient that isnt. If you don’t I’ll ask you stop lying about me. I’ll provide 1 of me directly doing the exact opposite.
That was easy.
I have, repeatedly. Please stop lying about this too. If you don’t, I’ll ask you stop lying about me. I’ll provide a quote of me doing the exact opposite.
That didn’t take long to find.
But here’s a new one for you. Just because there are some people allergic to some drugs that doesn’t mean we stop using them. We just don’t use them for that patient. This is the strongest case you can make, this drug a is actively harmful for patient a. We still give drug a to patient b. That also doesn’t mean that, for those that therapy fails, we shouldn’t try something else. just give patient a drug b. Drug a still “works”.
You didn’t say that therapy didn’t help you? You didn’t say that therapy was as effective as sitting at home and masturbating? Hmm maybe that was another guy.
This you?
And this? This you?
Is this you?
it shows therapy failing to prevent harm. It shows a systemic failure that you refuse to accept.
The very first words you gave us in this thread:
You didn’t say we need to make therapy comfortable for men. You said we need to make men comfortable with therapy. You described the problem as being on the side of the patient, rather than on the side of the system. You continued:
Didn’t bother to discover any of their concerns. Didn’t bother to determine the validity of those concerns. Didn’t validate their feelings on the subject; just dismissed them entirely. You collapsed every concern of men about therapy into “toxic masculinity”. Your very first thought on the topic was to blame the patient.
That victim-blaming attitude upset me considerably, and is the specific reason why I decided to engage with you. The attitude you presented in your very first words of your very first comment is my answer to a question you will ask later in the conversation:
Stop dismissing their concerns. Stop alienating them. Start listening. Start fixing the system so that it adequately addresses their concerns. Stop blaming their “toxic masculinity”, start validating their concerns.
No, actually, I did not. I invite you to read the comment again. You provided “booze” and “suicide”, and argued that therapy was better than these harmful alternatives.
In response, I asked whether therapy was better than neutral alternatives. Obviously, it’s better than direct harm. I asked whether it was better than a placebo. I asked whether therapy was better than chronic masturbation, among several other neutral, non-harmful alternatives.
It doesn’t, it shows men in all countries reportedly committing suicide at a higher rate. You inferred that from nothing. Why are women’s numbers so much lower? They don’t succeed in therapy more. They do attend more. If therapy is such a systemic failure where’s the systemic faliure? Where’s the massive number of women committing suicide. Surely you believe more women commit suicide? (More women attend therapy, therapy is a failure) We have a split on gender lines that outcome of therapy (we know are qual) do not explain. With sources please. It isn’t outcome, it’s income.
Any evidence therapy is particularly uncomfortable for men? There is evidence, that when men attend therapy, theres little difference in result between men and women. You have inferred that therapy, in itself, is uncomfotable for men from nothing.
There is also evidence that men do not attend therapy at the same rate as women. Hence: we need to get men comfortable with therapy. I go on to justify why I think men are uncomfortable with therapy hence:
What do you think toxic masculinity is? It’s all of that. It’s the pressures that society places on men in that result in toxic outcomes. We agree men committing suicide at a ludicrously high rate is a toxic outcome? Their concerns? I am a man, they’re my concerns. Men are concerned with going to therapy. We need to get them comfortable with the idea. Because therapy works, we don’t attend as much as we should, and vulnerable men die because of it.
None of that is victim blaming. Smashing gender norms will get men comfortable with therapy. No blaming the individual man necessary.
I’m satisfied you’re lie is a spurious link. My counter examples are direct.
You did ask that. But we’ve known for over a decade that it is better. JAQing off whether therapy is better than Jacking off is suggesting therapy is as effective as a placebo. We know it isn’t. If you weren’t JAQing off, having just learned you are over a decade behind why didn’t you transition to learning mode. Who finds out they’re a decade behind, and continues to argue a position they just learned is a decade out of date.
I don’t dismiss their concerns. I show evidence to counter them. Is therapy effective for men? Yes, here’s a link. Is it more effective than jacking off? Yes here’s a link. I have to listen to their concerns to counter them. I’ve told you many times that I am trying to fix the system.
You don’t understand toxic masculinity. A man doesn’t have toxic masculinity, a man experiences pressure to perform in masculinity in ways that can lead to toxic outcomes. Like suicide. We call these pressures toxic masculinity “TM”. With that clarified does that explain some things? You heard a term you didn’t understand. You inferred some nonsense from nothing. You then gave me a hard time for your misunderstanding.
Link Excerpt:
See: graph
The reference to TM was purely to tell people that know why not to waste time talking to me about why. The “why” doesn’t matter, it didn’t help you at all to learn it. It’s decades of feminist theory, 3 actually that’s how far you are behind, and this is a Lemmy thread.
The “what” does matter, the “what” we need to do is get men into pathways that lead to positive outcomes. Therapy is one. Parallel to therapy, you are welcome to suggest another (you haven’t). But do not suggest therapy is in anyway similar to a placebo, you’re merely reinforcing the pressure men already have to not seek it.
Got it. Therapy works.
All these people killing themselves aren’t indicative of any sort of problem with “the system”. They’re responsible for their own deaths, because they refuse to accept what you know to be true.
Makes perfect sense. Have a nice day.