In an unexpected mask off “secure” email and VPN provider Proton took the stance of siding with the fascist MAGA Reps. Proton’s services are no option for me and many others any longer. Let’s collect and discuss alternatives (E2E encrypted email and VPN) here 🔐👇
Always try to provide:
-Server location (jurisdiction)
-Governance
-Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency
-User experience/ease of use (grade 1 to 10, lets take Proton as a benchmark with an 8)
-Pricing and links
If you know alternative setups, feel free to share, too.
#ProtonExodus
Background: https://lemmy.ca/comment/13913116
Edit:typo
StartMail, netherlands. runs StartPage, a searchengine. politically engaged company in europe. pro GDPR & eu politicians being educated more than they have been. POP & IMAP, i use clients like ArcaneChat on android and ThunderBird on desktop.
MullvadVPN, sweden. have been raided by police and have hade no data to disclose. 5€ a month for up to five devices. does DAITA and multihopping. has own client, streamlined to use, also performs as well with wireguard.
Sigh.
Goddammit. I’m so fucking tired.
Am I the only that don’t see this the same way as the rest? I am in way way endorsing or supporting MAGA, but they did take action against big tech (though for reasons of retribution) and I see Proton only acknowledging a good person being designated to lead the next antitrust efforts, apparently with a good track record.
Proton also acknowledges Lina Kahn who has done a great job, nominated under Joe Biden.
Ultimately, I feel like from a perspective of Proton, any win against Big Tech, is a good win, and I can’t disagree.
There is a longer discussion to be had around how the dems were supported by oligarchs and I think that’s what Proton is referring to, they decided to turn a blind eye under the Obama administration for instance. Bernie Sanders goes to lengths about this in this interview, illuminating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzkgWDCucNY
So all in all, maga sucks, new pick probably good, and in my view, proton not actually endorsing maga/trump but just acknowledging a good pick.
Did I miss something?
The main part of the message that pissed me off was the idea that GOP sides with the “little guy”. First, it’s demonstrably false. Second, he is a tech CEO. He wouldn’t recognise a little guy before his security crew has time to forcibly remove him.
yes, that’s a sane approach
Be tired with Tuta!
This is how they win.
Like zombies, slow and steady, dumb and hungry
Perfect
Truly unhinged that they decided to come out on this. Fellas, you are fucking Swiss why throw yourself under the bus for the US election
Because terrible people literally can’t help themselves. Wait for people to show you who they truly are, they will…
Phew! For a moment I thought you were talking about the steam compatibility thingy.
I thought they were talking about the elementary particle—I was afraid we’d have to find some other way of manifesting our physical existence.
Misinformation. OP is advocating that you shoot yourself in the foot.
The CEO said something silly on Twitter which revealed either that (a) he shares an exceedingly banal opinion with literally half of America or (b) he’s not above a bit of preemptive sycophancy to advance his (positive) anti-trust agenda.
There’s nothing particularly scandalous in the offending tweet:
- Implying that the Democrats are now “the party of big business” is arguably true (and very boring)
- Implying that the Republicans now “stand for the little guys” is dumb but also arguably true, unfortunately - the working classes swung to Trump in the recent election while the Democrats are fast becoming a party of high-earning elites (which is why they lost)
- Saying that the antitrust actions began under Trump I is, well, true
Proton is not owned Zuck-like by its CEO. It’s controlled by a foundation with other stakeholders on the board, including the inventor of the Web himself. In its niche it is still by far the best option. Ditching it for a nebulous non-existent alternative because the CEO expressed a dumb and extremely commonplace opinion is just silly and self-defeating.
PS: to be clear, OP is peddling misinformation because it’s not true that “Proton took the stance” of anything. It’s the personal opinion of the CEO that’s at issue. It’s a major distinction. I find it disappointing that people interested in privacy would have such little respect for a private individual’s right to have their own thoughts.
PPS: to be extra clear, my comments are about the post above, not stuff that people are reading elsewhere. But the substance stands. See discussion for detail.
I love how you’re claiming misinformation while posting misinformation. It’s not the CEO, it’s a board member. That said, the company also officially posted these ideas on their Bluesky account.
This isn’t a “CEO” expressing a belief, it’s the board, and now the official company line.
I’m not disagreeing with their post particularly on corporate dems, but this is a company and not a persons sole belief.
Also, if dems are the party of big business then why are all these big businesses donating to Trump? Does that just mean republicans are the party of even bigger business?
Their bullet points are spin-doctoring.
Also the comment got a few dozen upvotes almost immediately. Suspicious.
I was thinking the same thing. In all the threads about it. It just seemed oddly suspicious and not typical of what the digital privacy community has typically believed… I mean, I’m also not going to homogenize a community like that though and Proton has been a mainstay.
This is all over the place.
My comment concerns the post above. OP cites a tweet and states a falsehood about it. No, “Proton” did not “take the stance” of anything in that tweet. Yes, Andy Yen is the CEO. Yes, that tweet is in his name and not in the name of Proton. I was not responding to other things that you’ve seen elsewhere.
Now, as for those other things elsewhere, I stick by the substance of my point. Sure, it’s more of a problem that dumb things are being said in the name of Proton rather than just it’s CEO. But look at the detail of those things. There is nothing scandalous. People are getting their underwear in a twist about extremely common opinions being expressed on Twitter. Personally I don’t care if a CEO voted a different way to me, or even if a whole board did. This should not have any bearing on Proton’s product or what makes it better than others. This is just another typically American culture-war drama. It’s boring.
Personally I don’t care if a CEO voted a different way to me, or even if a whole board did. This should not have any bearing on Proton’s product or what makes it better than others.
I won’t have a friend who supports Trump, because to do so is to support a regressive, bigoted, jackbooted view of the world and how things should be done. I don’t speak to my Trump supporting family members except when family situations force us to.
WHY ON EARTH would I trust my privacy to a company whose entire board supports that view, much less their CEO?
This is all over the place.
If you click the link in this post it takes you to a mastodon comment from the official Proton account stating exactly the same beliefs as this board member. If that isn’t in the name of Proton what is?
People ARE looking at the details of this. If this company starts cozying up to an alt-right “dictator for a day” government then when/where does this stop? There’s nuance beyond just Proton and Andy said something scandalous here. It’s layers of political issues that spell a privacy focused company having an inability to actually keep the government out of my shit.
Culture war would be if they took a stance on DEI. This is political and has actual consequences.
Why are you trying to defend a fucking corporation? When has a company ever not become evil as they look to grow? It’s just the nature of the beast. The people here, and the OP specifically, have called out Proton is over for them. They’re not saying you should do the same. Just that they’re going to take a step back and others expressing they’ll join.
I largely agree with what you’re saying, except the official Proton Mastadon account doubled down on that personal opinion. That seems pretty clear that it’s endorsed not just by that one individual on the board.
Link to Mastodon thread: https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
Archives in case they delete it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20250115165213/https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
Text copy of their post:
Corporate capture of Dems is real. In 2022, we campaigned extensively in the US for anti-trust legislation.
Two bills were ready, with bipartisan support. Chuck Schumer (who coincidently has two daughters working as big tech lobbyists) refused to bring the bills for a vote.
At a 2024 event covering antitrust remedies, out of all the invited senators, just a single one showed up - JD Vance.
By working on the front lines of many policy issues, we have seen the shift between Dems and Republicans over the past decade first hand.
Dems had a choice between the progressive wing (Bernie Sanders, etc), versus corporate Dems, but in the end money won and constituents lost.
Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.
This doesn’t seem bad? Its true dems embraced the corporate side. The republicans suck and are only going after tech until tech bows down to them (like zuck has been doing) but the post isn’t really outrageous or worse than the first tweet
This doesn’t seem bad? Its true dems embraced the corporate side.
Are you trying to argue that R is less entrenched with rich oligarchs and corporate money than the Dems? Because I musk object if so.
No I’m saying Dems moved to the right and aren’t representing the people who historically have voted for them because they’re chasing the corporate donors and right wingers
Republicans have always been worst and still are.
No I’m saying Dems moved to the right and aren’t representing the people who historically have voted for them because they’re chasing the corporate donors and right wingers
Well on this specific detail we agree entirely!
Right? So much of this seems like people not able to tell if actions are good or bad independent of who takes the action. There’s no way their team could ever do anything bad, and anything done by the other team is automatically bad.
God forbid you try to reinforce a rare good behavior from someone who’s also done a lot of horrendous things.
Looks like backing up the post was a good call.
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It isn’t misinformation.
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Someone like this board member being a traitor to his species isn’t covered by “opinion”. No normalizing nazis. It’s such a low bar. He couldn’t clear it.
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He blasted his treachery over the public airwaves. His privacy isn’t being violated.
This whole comment feels like an exercise in using all the best words to miss the point. We know, as does this probably-lying board member, that Republicans are only going to go more authoritarian, and the only reason they would pretend to care about big tech abuses is to grab the steering wheel from them to commit far worse abuses. No company that gets into bed with traitors is going to become the new center of my digital life.
Tuta for email, syncthing for photos bc I’m not self-hosting, mullvad for VPN.
Traitor to his species
??? Lol? Imagine having an opinion in 2025
Sorry but I won’t participate in this juvenile trivializing of the word “Nazi”. Yes, I know that’s become almost a meaningless slur at this point, but personally I just will not take seriously anybody who throws it around like this. Perhaps because I’m European. Perhaps because I studied history. It’s not serious.
Mate they’re mainstreaming fascist rhetoric. Over 60% of Republicans now believe in the Great Replacement theory aka White Genocide, which used to be a conspiracy theory on the fringes of white nationalist propaganda just about a decade ago.
I encourage you to not get hung up on symbolism and instead look to ideology and rhetoric.
Leaving aside the absurd and juvenile “Nazi” slur (“fascist” is less of a stretch), I disagree with your analysis. I think it’s exactly the opposite. I think it’s because mainstream politicians have refused to address the reasonable aspects of people’s concerns (about immigration, in particular), and because progressive activists have gone off the leash in their wild accusations of racism at the slightest contradiction of their opinions, that we’ve ended up in this situation of the far right getting into power all over the place.
Once again: I do not vote for these parties. Anyway, we are now completely offtopic so let’s leave it there.
So yes they’re fascist, but the progressives complained too much about racism, and therefore it’s fine to support the fascists?
IDK what to tell you but your political ideology is privileged garbage. You’re more scared of being called racist than of fascism. The kind of “yes ethnic cleansing but please no mean language” attitude. Please get a political education and your priorities straight.
With your insults and condescension, you’re just proving my point.
Yeah I never doubted you’d have a reason to dismiss being called out like that. Getting your feelings hurt invalidates everything else. I feel like I’m talking to myself from 10 years ago.
You don’t have to take it from me. If you’re a student of history, maybe start with Umberto Eco. He knew a thing or two about fascism, I’ve heard.
The biggest mistake we can make is to assume it can’t happen again.
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Implying that the Republicans now “stand for the little guys” is dumb but also arguably true
No, no it isn’t arguably true. It’s just flat out incorrect. 100% of people could vote for him or others like him out of fear of disappearing in the night if they don’t. That doesn’t make him or the party “for the little guy”.
It doesn’t matter that 51% of the country votes for the Republicans. The party has consistently shit all over “the little guy” and made him eat it for over 40 years, telling him he’s eating shit and then said only the party can fix it.
All the while the party’s been giving tax money to their friends and saying “don’t worry, we’re here now. you can feed him as much shit as you want. we’ll find someone cleaning up shit and make the “little guy” think that person was making it instead. that way when you get caught doing it no one will believe it”
Implying that the Democrats are now “the party of big business” is arguably true (and very boring)
While true in some scenarios, in anti-trust Lina khan’s ftc has done significantly more than trump ever did. Biden keeping her over the protest of countless business execs and daily articles in the wall street journal on how she’s ruining America shows some commitment to prosecuting big tech.
Meanwhile, trump’s anti-trust moves were mostly based off petty issues he had with the ceos or the platforms having a “liberal bias”. Now that every big tech ceo has fallen in line and given him $1 million for his inauguration I doubt we’ll see much movement on that front.
I’ve been doing research into this because I want to degoogle. Looking for hosted and secure Mail, Calendar, Drive… maybe docs if possible. I don’t mind paying as long as I’m a customer and not a product to be sold.
My short list was: Mailbox.org, Zoho, and Notion.
Then there are the services I don’t understand as much because I don’t really want to self host or step into server maintenance… NextCloud, OwnCloud, LibreCloud, OnlyOffice. Maybe someone could straighten me out with those if I’m off base.
Trump’s terrible politics aside:
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the Republican party is pushing legislation which requires you to identify yourself to view porn
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you can get around this with a VPN
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proton is a VPN (nonprofit, but still).
I’ll be switching email providers when I can… I can’t remember when my subscription ends.
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OK I think I will move to Posteo. Great security, privacy focussed, servers in Germany, running with 100% renewable energy. Prices are ok, too. Ticks all boxes.
I’ve said it in another thread: German users should consider posteo as a green, safe, and affordable (1€/M) alternative. https://posteo.de/de
Maybe not the contribution that you’re looking for, but going to tell you this story regardless.
I am Swiss, and am a former Department of Foreign Affairs (FDFA / EDA) employee. My colleagues and I had organized an evening on cybersecurity, where we showcase what Switzerland has to offer. I invited stakeholders such as:
- Dreamlab (really cool company, should look them up if you don’t know of them)
- NCSC (Swiss National Cyber Security Center)
- Some Swiss cyber regulator; and
- Proton
Firstly, when speaking to a delegate of one of the above listed (don’t feel comfortably sharing publicly which one), he ushered a statement; upon me saying I’m a huge Proton fan and subscribed to all services - “they are lying to your faces”.
I was curious, so I spoke with the regulators and NCSC delegates, they said that Proton has been involved in a handful of leaks - some that were made public, some behind the scenes.
When I spoke to Andy, having told him that I grew up in Canada, I asked him what his plan was for North America. His response: “I will gladly take their money, but never open up shop there - too many national security departments that come knocking on the door”.
Now I see that (on the Proton page), that they are looking for a few US based positions for Marketing and Growth - going against what we discussed a few years back. In all honesty, I still have a Plus subscription with them, but beginning to questions a lot more things regarding security and ethics at Proton. Guess I’ll just self-host in the future. Trust no one but yourself with your personal data.
Wow!
Of all companies, this is one I didn’t expect.
Damn.
the good news is this is a lesson to never trust any entity whose role in the world is to accumulate capital
What’s insane is that didn’t Proton just recently announce they were converting to a non-profit?
Yes, they did: https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation
The CEO “apologized” this morning (after being duly chastised, I’m sure):
Hi all, last night, a post from last year from my personal X account suddenly became a topic of discussion here on Reddit. I want to share a few thoughts on this to provide clarity to the community on what is Proton’s policy on politics going forward.
First, while the X post was not intended to be a political statement, I can understand how it can be interpreted as such, and it therefore should not have been made. While we will not prohibit all employees from expressing personal political opinions publicly, it is something I will personally avoid in the future. I lean left on some issues, and right on other issues, but it doesn’t serve our mission to publicly debate this. It should be obvious, but I will say that it is a false equivalence to say that agreeing with Republicans on one specific issue (antitrust enforcement to protect small companies) is equal to endorsing the entire Republican party platform.
Second, officially Proton must always be politically neutral, and while we may share facts and analysis, our policy going forward will be to share no opinions of a political nature. The line between facts, analysis, and opinions can be blurry at times, but we will seek to better clarify this over time through your feedback and input.
The exception to these rules is on the topics of privacy, security, and freedom. These are necessarily political topics, where influencing public policy to defend these values, often requires engaging politically.
The operations of Proton have always reflected our neutrality. For example, recently we refused pressure to deplatform both Palestinian student groups and Zionist student groups, not because we necessarily agreed with their views, but because we believe more strongly in their right to have their own views.
It is also a legal guarantee under Swiss law, which explicitly prohibits us from assisting foreign governments or agencies, and allows us no discretion to show favoritism as Swiss law and Swiss courts have the final say.
The promise we make is that no matter your politics, you will always be welcome at Proton (subject of course to adherence to our terms and conditions). When it comes to defending your right to privacy, Proton will show no favoritism or bias, and will unconditionally defend it irrespective of the opinions you may hold.
This is because both Proton as a company, and Proton as a community, is highly diverse, with people that hold a wide range of opinions and perspectives. It’s important that we not lose sight of nuance. Agreeing/disagreeing with somebody on one point, rarely means you agree/disagree with them on every other point.
I would like to believe that as a community there is more that unites us than divides us, and that privacy and freedom are universal values that we can all agree upon. This continues to be the mission of the non-profit Proton Foundation, and we will strive to carry it out as neutrally as possible.
Going forward, I will be posting via u/andy1011000. Thank you for your feedback and inputs so far, and we look forward to continuing the conversation.
Original post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i2nz9v/on_politics_and_proton_a_message_from_andy/
Am I being paranoid when I notice that the binary at the end of his username translates to 88?
Someone in the comments there make a good point:
It is so disingenuous to say “last year” when it was a little more than a month ago.
His excuse that the social media team posted it from the official account instead of his account is farcical. This whole thing is too bad a taste in my mouth.
To say “I made an apolitical statement last year” when we can verify that the statement was both political and within 30 days is bizarre. He thinks we’re idiots, to boot.
Wow, such a generic nonpology.
Oh, I’m so, so sorry I was caught red-handed. I apologize for anything you guys blame me for, please keep using your product.
Honestly it’s more fucking cringe when these clowns try to walk back their opinion in a clearly bullshit and artificial way. I rather them just own it. If you’re gonna be a cuck, be a cuck. Don’t backtrack.
First, while the X post was not intended to be a political statement
Not intended to be a political statement? Even setting aside agreement vs disagreement, how is this (below) not a political statement?
10 years ago Republicans were the party of big business and Dems stood for the little guys, but today the tables have completely turned.
Again, regardless of whether you agree or disagree it’s like a textbook example of a political statement.
It doesn’t mention or women or other minorities, so it’s barely political.
are you alright??
No, 88 is not a bad number. “88” is pronounced like “發發” in Taiwanese, which means ‘making fortune’. And you might also see Taiwanese people using “168” in their usernames, as it has similar meaning.
88 is typically used either on its own, or in full as 1488 by neo nazis and fascists. It’s a dog whistle.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words
On its own, it can be used accidentally, such as if you have 88 in your username because you were born in '88, but if paired with other behavioral patterns it can become damning.
Sure, it could be. I wasn’t defending him.
Just please don’t think most of us using “88” or “888” for hinting Nazis, and “666” for praying Satan.Well, like anything, it depends on context. In this context, it’s not crazy to be on high alert for weird politicized signals.
However, I think you made a pretty good point about its meaning in Taiwan given that this fellow is apparently from there, combined with it being his year of birth. So, context decides and in this case at least it seems pretty ordinary.
Isn’t it a bit… selfish for you to expect everyone everywhere know your fucking context? 88 means shit nothing in Europe and we’ve got the original Nazis here (except of course if you’re Nazi - they know about 88, common people don’t).
Same with 666. Ask an Indian what it means and he will tell you one more than 665.
selfish? thanks, helpful
“Supremacist” might be a better word
I just uninstalled everything Proton on my PC. Wtaf.
That is beyond a dog whistle, that’s a Hunger Games whistle. I’d say it’s practically a threat.
We are actually living in the Rick & Morty back-to-back fascist timeline aren’t we? Because I’m through being reasonable enough to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. That gave me chills.
This may sound drastic but really I think the only move for Proton is fire Andy. They’re a non-profit, the board need to step in. He has single-handedly cost the company both current and potential customers by just not being smart enough to keep his mouth shut. This makes him an idiot, and an idiot as CEO is not a good look (see: anything musk)
Andy Yen really dropped the ball especially because he hasn’t done anything significant to really establish trust in his leadership and the biggest thing he does is tank the company image.
Dude had the easiest job in the world — shut up, look smart, pretend to care and delegate. Instead, he jumps head first into left vs right of US politics on Twitter of all places 🤡
Mullvad is supposed to be a safe and secure VPN.
Unfortunately not a mail or storage provider.
If this wasn’t enough of a wakeupcall to not put all the eggs in one basket then what is? Companies are literally doing this to lock you into their service so it’s harder to switch since you then have to find X new services instead of just one.
Better go with one that’d specialized for each service you need…
Sooo, can we not create and/or finance our own? Please be gentle…but…is there not enough of us paying for proton and other privacy apps to fund a floss or non-profit version? I mean there are tech nerds all over this place, along with law nerds and political nerds…etc…(meant with love btw) that would have an instant user base.
I pledge here to sub up to $15usd/month for any lemmy person that starts an entity that provides us with what we need with ethics and morality of lemmy common.
it’s called StartMail and also outdoes Google with a searchengine called StartPage
Disroot is about that much per year. If you donate that much per month, their services will just get better and better.
