Look, the only reason people start getting conservative, is when needs and wants start getting harder to acquire. Want to change that? then have affordable living make a come back. There’s a reason why a decade ago people were more liberal, because shit was more affordable.
The problem is that something is missing and it’s being filled by angry reactionaries and right wing grifters who prey on the particular insecurities of young men, specifically insecurities around masculine values.
What’s missing is a foundational framework for understanding the male experience as distinct yet coequal to feminist theory. A framework that seeks to promote a balanced, respectful dialogue by articulating unique structures, values, and challenges faced by men, in order to offer a lens through which male identity, struggle, and transformation can be understood on their own terms, while upholding - acknowledging - the progress and insights of feminism.
These men feel like they don’t have purpose or identity. They need a framework, but unfortunately efforts to define and build such a framework are often hijacked by extremists that just hate women and minorities. Like we see now.
How can right wing extremists hijack a “foundational framework” when you offer nothing. For them to hijack the conversation you would first have to offer substance that then is taken but you don’t offer anything. That is why they vote against you. You are for the betterment of one sex and that doesn’t include them. Why would they vote with you? If the situation were reversed you wouldn’t vote with them either.
Do we really need to make the framework different for male and female humans? Why not use one for humans and teach tolerance to difference in general? I don’t think many of the issues we face will be solved if we keep two different frameworks.
The framework that is built from the oppression of women, and the challenges that arise from that, does not represent the lived experiences, challenges, or values of men. All too often it diminishes these. To move forward in a spirit of mutual understanding requires a recognition of what matters to men; i.e., what provides purpose and value.
I feel that you may be misunderstanding me. This is exactly about tolerance and acceptance - including acceptance that men and women have different lived experiences that are founded on different fundamental principles of what is important and what provides purpose. Is it really so difficult to accept that men might find purpose or value that differs from women? I don’t believe there is harm in acknowledging that, and respecting a healthy understanding of that difference.
I don’t deny that the current experience of life is different because of gender/sex. So I am rather talking about the target, a society without sexism.
Is it really so difficult to accept that men might find purpose or value that differs from women?
Yes, I am indeed questioning this point. Is this difference in the essence of the gender or is it a social construct?
For me, it’s actually not hard to imagine that men and women could share the same distribution of purposes and values, if the environment in which they grew up supported it. The diversity would be based on the uniqueness of individuals with little to no influence from the gender.
I find it very oppressing to have the specific framework you mention associated to you because of your gender. What about transgender people or people who don’t associate with a traditional gender?
AFAB here and I agree 100% - the issue is that by elevating that which used to acceptably be oppressed, the primary oppressor feels that they have lost station and position as they see society as a ladder - if you aren’t at the top someone else is above you. That kind of thinking makes this even more difficult to solve.
AFAB?
Agreed, masculists, especially the young ones, are mostly socially anxious and socially scared people who find shelter from their anxiety by oppressing another group. The solution is probably to work on this social anxiety from childhood.
Shitty parenting and the education system being eroded year by year. This is the generation that the billionaires wanted. Poor, stupid and complicit.
Yeah, make them idiots and then tell them they’re the most important idiots and shouldn’t feel less than. It’s a Republican politician’s wet dream to have a population of slobbering assholes who feel like they deserve more than everyone else and are being denied it
Social democracy let everyone down (by being neither social or democratic, thanks to politicians thinking about their rich friends) and now people are surprised that a generation started to believe that an authoritarian leader would be better.
How did social democracy let everyone down?
Are you kidding? All crown corporations are getting privatized, they’re intentionally destroying social services in order to justify giving more space to the private sector, they only built housing long enough to comfortably house boomers and X and then they gave up…
No it’s not social democracy at this point, it was still sold as being it way longer than it actually was though and that’s how people became sour to it. If you convince people that social democracy is them not being able to afford to live, they’ll get hooked to the first alternative they find.
The reason I asked is because I feel that you are blaming social democracy and I think you are painting with too broad a brush. Capital should serve the state, the people, not the other way around. Social democracy is in part about strong regulations on capital. We need to stand by that and support it. Throwing it away cedes power to capital.
I’m not blaming social democracy, I’m describing how people feel because they’ve kept being told that’s what they were getting even when they weren’t until they started to believe that social democracy was the problem to begin with.
We won’t get social democracy with the choices offered to us either so what then?
Because right wing voters continued to exist to let it.
gestures broadly
I must live in a bubble. Both of my (university age) kids and their friends are vocally offended by Trump and Musk, and they think Polierve is a bad joke.
My oldest games online with a few Americans and they are also very anyi-trump. (“They wouldn’t be my friends if they supported him”)
You are most likely living in a bubble. Cherish it, but don’t forget, that there are a lot of people that feel different from you.
I do have the same experience. My social circle is very much open, tolerant and absolutely hates what the GOP in America and right leaning/right wing parties in Europe are doing and proposing. I know almost no young people that support strong conservative or right leaning policy and talking points. I am however also in contact with a different group of people (through my countrys military/military reserve), that very much leans into those right talking points and favours more conservative policy.
If you can, engage with them and try to understand them and help them understand your point.
This gives me hope for the future
Talked to a few of my friend’s kids. They all think Musk is a genius.
I see Andrew Tate victims in all of them.
Ugh, what a terrible future we have.
Gen x parents have dropped the ball so hard it’s not even funny.
So much alcoholism. And 2008 happening in their prime earning years caused several gen X’ers I know to never recover financially.
I feel seen here LOL
No kidding!
The manosphere is the symptom.
This. I would argue housing affordability is one of the main root causes.
All of vulture capitalism is the cause.
Capitalism in general, from observing for 40 years.
I haven’t seen that one, but I love FD.
Check out Sixteenth Minute of Fame, too. Jamie Loftus did a multi-part series on the Manosphere, and it’s excellent.
It’s serious but still funny, rich in historical detail but still personal, and she portrays it as patriarchy vs everyone (not men vs women) without turning that into a free pass for men.
You can tell she put a ton of extra care into these ones.
I’ll give it a watch, thank you! I’m not saying it’s not problematic and doesn’t amplify the crazy, btw. It most certainly does. The sickness is not creating a society that has time, money, and skill set necessary to well… properly socialize our population, as well as innoculate them against this mess. But in a sane world, most manosphere garbage would be banned as hate speech, probably.
100%, this video mostly goes into how fascism requires violent men to sustain it, and so violent men it will create through isolation and harmful propaganda. it’s basically positive feedback loop where as fascism gains more ground, it isolates us more, making it easier to make men feel lonely and like they’re failures, and that the system doesn’t work, but instead of trying to make the system work by embracing a new view, they instead move from violence to hyperviolence.
the video basically both agrees with you, and at the same time makes a compelling argument that all the people killing us right now are sad pathetic losers whose daddies never loved them, and they see no avenue to a better tomorrow so they do… this
the video basically both agrees with you, and at the same time makes a compelling argument that all the people killing us right now are sad pathetic losers whose daddies never loved them, and they see no avenue to a better tomorrow so they do… this
That’s basically why I’ve moved from a “f them , they get what they deserve” to trying to establish dialogue that offers a path to redemption/atonement. If the person demonstrates no good faith and continues to attack, boundaries must be set and enforced. When good faith is demonstrated, we try again. If they revert to abhorrent behavior, we set former and more extensive boundaries. If they are straight up belligerent/dangerous, we segregate and rehabilitate/re-educate humanely, and attempt reintegration. Capitalism is not the system for that. It’s time to try socialism.
Well the kids are leaning right because of propaganda and mind control. Plain and simple. Instagram and Twitter actively push ragebait content designed to radicalise impressionable kids.
Where are their fucking parents? My generation bitches endlessly about boomers, then…raises another generation of them?
Nice.
Both working and burnt out by the rise in everything costing so much but wages being stagnant?
Does that make it okay to raise monsters?
If you can’t raise your kids how about don’t have any? This world is pointless and cruel by default anyways.
It takes a village to raise a child. The village abandoned them. This is on society as a whole.
A big part of solving a problem is understanding what leads up to it.
If it were just one family? Fine, ignore it, blame them.
If it’s a lot of them? Maybe, just maybe there is something going on in the bigger picture.
These kids have got awful fucking parents
Both JP and PP couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag and they’re waxing poetic about masculinity?
PP’s so masculine that when one of the racist supporters said he’d rape his wife, this powerhouse just pulled down his pants, bent over and took it.
Anything these twats says is absolute nonsense.
You who could fight, though?
Didn’t he also win that fight?
Yup. Decisively
I still don’t understand how they are doing it.
At no point in history could you go to the woman dealership and buy a woman. You could maybe pay for a little time with a woman, or buy a slave at a slave auction. You could negotiate with a woman’s father some exchange for his daughter. But that exchange usually had to have something of value, and it also meant you lived beyond the age of 30.
Like I get that younger people are dumb, and being a man, I can attest that men are particularly dumb, but how fucking whacked are these men thinking they will somehow benefit from this?
The strict dress code for women came about because debt collectors would show up to farms in the Fertile Crescent to demand payment on a loan, and decide to take their daughters as payment. (Drunkenly-remembered source: Graeber, “Debt: The First 5,000 Years.”)
This is accurate.
Source: I once bought a wife from a man in the Fertile Crescent in exchange for a shipment of low quality copper.
I’m just gonna say it
Humans have a weird system for propagating the species.
I vote for counter propaganda feeding them that right leaning people are all child predators or will become one. Make them demonized the same way they demonize the left.
A lot of comments in here have real “I’d beat my kids” vibes, and that’s kind of shocking and scary.
